From rjs@fdy2.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 2 03:53:01 2003 From: rjs@fdy2.demon.co.uk (Robert Swindells) Date: Tue Dec 2 03:53:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]microExplorer error codes Message-ID: <200312021249.hB2CnvWQ009864@ren.fdy2.net> Does anyone have a list of error codes that a microExplorer can return ? I have got a mx that is failing to reset when starting up the interface program. The returned value is 28. Robert Swindells From asholz@topinform.com Tue Dec 2 22:45:01 2003 From: asholz@topinform.com (Andreas Holz) Date: Tue Dec 2 22:45:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]Re: LispM-Hackers digest, Vol 1 #235 - 1 msg In-Reply-To: <20031202210101.9925.qmail@kappa.unlambda.com> References: <20031202210101.9925.qmail@kappa.unlambda.com> Message-ID: <3FCD9464.60109@topinform.com> lispm-hackers-request@lists.unlambda.com wrote: >Send LispM-Hackers mailing list submissions to > lispm-hackers@lists.unlambda.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.unlambda.com/mailman/listinfo/lispm-hackers >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > lispm-hackers-request@lists.unlambda.com > >You can reach the person managing the list at > lispm-hackers-admin@lists.unlambda.com > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of LispM-Hackers digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. microExplorer error codes (Robert Swindells) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:49:57 GMT >From: Robert Swindells >To: lispm-hackers@lists.unlambda.com >Subject: [LMH]microExplorer error codes > > >Does anyone have a list of error codes that a microExplorer can return ? > >I have got a mx that is failing to reset when starting up the interface >program. The returned value is 28. > >Robert Swindells > > >--__--__-- > > > >http://lists.unlambda.com/mailman/listinfo/lispm-hackers > > > >End of LispM-Hackers Digest > > > > Robert, isn't there any appropriate documentation on Al Kossow's site? Andreas From nyef@softhome.net Tue Dec 9 09:00:01 2003 From: nyef@softhome.net (Nyef) Date: Tue Dec 9 09:00:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]Microcode emulator Message-ID: <20031209175722.GA9616@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> Hello all. I spent some time over the past month or so working up a partial emulator for the explorer microcode. I'm taking a break from it (and all other lispm-related things) for a little while, so I figured I'd put it where it can garner scornful comments from the list. ^_- It's up at http://www.dridus.com/~nyef/lispm/nevermore/ While I was working on this, I noticed that I'm missing two config roms that would be required to make a full set for the explorer I. Specifically, the CPU config rom (on the other board from the microcode roms) and the memory board config rom. Have these been dumped yet? --Alastair From aek@spies.com Wed Dec 10 11:31:01 2003 From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Wed Dec 10 11:31:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]memory config rom Message-ID: <200312102030.hBAKUt4C027091@spies.com> I checked my board this morning, and there isn't a socketed rom anywhere which would be a config rom. If someone has the diag software running, it would be worth sniffing around in the slot config spaces for the info for the CPU and memory boards. I vaguely remember when Daniel Seagraves was working on a microcode level simulation that he ran into the same problem (no obvious slot roms on the CPU or memory boards) From nyef@softhome.net Wed Dec 10 12:31:01 2003 From: nyef@softhome.net (Nyef) Date: Wed Dec 10 12:31:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]memory config rom In-Reply-To: <200312102030.hBAKUt4C027091@spies.com> References: <200312102030.hBAKUt4C027091@spies.com> Message-ID: <20031210212805.GA11222@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 12:30:55PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > I checked my board this morning, and there isn't a socketed rom > anywhere which would be a config rom. According to the field maintenance manual scans, if you hold the board chip side up with the connectors at the bottom, it's about 1/3 of the way up the board in the gap between the leftmost two backplane connectors. I'm not sure of the scale, but it looks like it could be a 28 or 32 pin chip. > If someone has the diag software running, it would be worth sniffing > around in the slot config spaces for the info for the CPU and memory > boards. The E1ProcGen manual has a list of -most- of the contents of the CPU ROM, which is supposedly on the board which -doesn't- have the ROMs that contain the microcode, on the way right edge of the board, on the right. > I vaguely remember when Daniel Seagraves was working on a microcode > level simulation that he ran into the same problem (no obvious slot > roms on the CPU or memory boards) Yeah, I kinda wish I had access to some of his code, in case he got any further than I have so far. --Alastair From aek@spies.com Wed Dec 10 12:36:01 2003 From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Wed Dec 10 12:36:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]memory config rom Message-ID: <200312102136.hBALaXor004348@spies.com> According to the field maintenance manual scans, if you hold the board chip side up with the connectors at the bottom, it's about 1/3 of the way up the board in the gap between the leftmost two backplane connectors. -- OK, I pulled up the picture on page 1GI_1-17 and I see it. I was expecting an EPROM. Will take care of it tonight. From mklarson@mac.com Tue Dec 30 08:28:01 2003 From: mklarson@mac.com (Michael Larson) Date: Tue Dec 30 08:28:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]microcode rom Message-ID: <61F2EAA7-3AED-11D8-940D-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> I am not sure how active this list is as the last results were posted 2001, but here goes. Is there a copy of the Explorer II microcode available? I would like to do some experimenting with run time compiling the microcode to a jump table for execution on the G4. Thanks, Mike Larson From nyef@softhome.net Tue Dec 30 08:57:01 2003 From: nyef@softhome.net (Nyef) Date: Tue Dec 30 08:57:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]microcode rom In-Reply-To: <61F2EAA7-3AED-11D8-940D-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> References: <61F2EAA7-3AED-11D8-940D-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> Message-ID: <20031230175449.GA31866@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 09:27:03AM -0800, Michael Larson wrote: > I am not sure how active this list is as the last results were posted > 2001, but here goes. That sounds suspicious. I can well believe that the last CVS checkin on E3 was in 2001, but almost everything else has been worked on at some point this year. Checking the mailing list archives shows that we last had activity on the 10th of December, this year. Things actually have been kindof slow recently, though. Maybe the new year will get us somwhere... > Is there a copy of the Explorer II microcode available? I would like to > do some experimenting with run time compiling the microcode to a jump > table for execution on the G4. I believe we may have an E2 microload around somewhere. What we don't have for the E2 are the boot proms or the CPU NuBus config ROM. http://www.unlambda.com/lispm/explorer-source/explorer-lispm-sources/ubin/ should have the file you are looking for, specifically exp2_ucode.mcr. I must say that from what little I've done with the PPC, it feels like it would be a -wonderful- target for a microcode interpreter. Or a dynarec setup for the microcode. The fact that it actually supports most of the complex action of the BYTE instruction natively is great. > Thanks, > > Mike Larson --Alastair Bridgewater From mklarson@mac.com Tue Dec 30 13:12:01 2003 From: mklarson@mac.com (Michael Larson) Date: Tue Dec 30 13:12:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]microcode rom In-Reply-To: <20031230175449.GA31866@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> References: <61F2EAA7-3AED-11D8-940D-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> <20031230175449.GA31866@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> Message-ID: <2071EBE7-3B15-11D8-B971-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> Thanks, found it. Any idea on what the format is? If the EII used a 64 bit 16k microcoded RAM then the size would be about 128k... it probably has some of the dispatch table stuff in there also. As a point of history I took my first AI class on an Explorer II machine, although my focus was on a BSEE and couldn't wait to be done with the class, I have re-discovered Lisp in the past few months and this looks like a fun project. The idea I had for the microcode was to parse the microcode instructions into a C (or asm) switch statement based on the decode of the instruction for each case statement, this would provide a nice fall back to emulate the dispatch table used by the lisp compiler. On newer processors it would be better just to churn through the assembled code and avoid as much decode (branches) as possible. It would be nice to boot my G5 to a VM that could access all 8 GBytes physical or 64 TeraBytes virtual. Cheers, Mike On Dec 30, 2003, at 9:54 AM, Nyef wrote: > On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 09:27:03AM -0800, Michael Larson wrote: >> I am not sure how active this list is as the last results were posted >> 2001, but here goes. > > That sounds suspicious. I can well believe that the last CVS checkin on > E3 was in 2001, but almost everything else has been worked on at some > point this year. > > Checking the mailing list archives shows that we last had activity on > the 10th of December, this year. > > Things actually have been kindof slow recently, though. Maybe the new > year will get us somwhere... > >> Is there a copy of the Explorer II microcode available? I would like >> to >> do some experimenting with run time compiling the microcode to a jump >> table for execution on the G4. > > I believe we may have an E2 microload around somewhere. What we don't > have for the E2 are the boot proms or the CPU NuBus config ROM. > > http://www.unlambda.com/lispm/explorer-source/explorer-lispm-sources/ > ubin/ > should have the file you are looking for, specifically exp2_ucode.mcr. > > I must say that from what little I've done with the PPC, it feels like > it would be a -wonderful- target for a microcode interpreter. Or a > dynarec setup for the microcode. The fact that it actually supports > most of the complex action of the BYTE instruction natively is great. > >> Thanks, >> >> Mike Larson > > --Alastair Bridgewater From nyef@softhome.net Tue Dec 30 15:40:01 2003 From: nyef@softhome.net (Nyef) Date: Tue Dec 30 15:40:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]microcode rom In-Reply-To: <2071EBE7-3B15-11D8-B971-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> References: <61F2EAA7-3AED-11D8-940D-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> <20031230175449.GA31866@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> <2071EBE7-3B15-11D8-B971-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> Message-ID: <20031231003821.GA32348@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 02:11:33PM -0800, Michael Larson wrote: > Thanks, found it. Any idea on what the format is? If the EII used a 64 > bit 16k microcoded RAM then the size would be about 128k... it probably > has some of the dispatch table stuff in there also. The format is documented in SSDN2, appendix A. The links are on the E3 site. The format that we don't have documentation for is E1 microloads (although it's fairly obvious once you find the right point in a disassembly of the boot proms). > As a point of history I took my first AI class on an Explorer II > machine, although my focus was on a BSEE and couldn't wait to be done > with the class, I have re-discovered Lisp in the past few months and > this looks like a fun project. It's fun, but some parts of the system are insane and not documented well. Stack-group switching, microcode instructions, etc. > The idea I had for the microcode was to parse the microcode > instructions into a C (or asm) switch statement based on the decode of > the instruction for each case statement, this would provide a nice fall > back to emulate the dispatch table used by the lisp compiler. On newer > processors it would be better just to churn through the assembled code > and avoid as much decode (branches) as possible. I've had several ideas on how to tackle the problem of emulating an Explorer system. I'm still not sure quite what the best method is... If you're going to be messing around with microcode, you might take a look at the E1 microcode interpreter I started writing a while back. It's at http://www.dridus.com/~nyef/lispm/nevermore/ and includes a disassembler, which might prove to be the interesting bit. The output from the disassembler is as close as I could figure out to the input for the original microcode assembler, and is the sanest way to look at the microcode that I've found thus far. It would need updating or rewriting for the E2, but you can at least use it for ideas. > It would be nice to boot my G5 to a VM that could access all 8 GBytes > physical or 64 TeraBytes virtual. It won't be an Explorer VM, then. Those are limited to 25 bits, word addressed. > Cheers, > > Mike --Alastair Bridgewater From rjs@fdy2.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 2 03:53:01 2003 From: rjs@fdy2.demon.co.uk (Robert Swindells) Date: Tue Dec 2 03:53:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]microExplorer error codes Message-ID: <200312021249.hB2CnvWQ009864@ren.fdy2.net> Does anyone have a list of error codes that a microExplorer can return ? I have got a mx that is failing to reset when starting up the interface program. The returned value is 28. Robert Swindells From asholz@topinform.com Tue Dec 2 22:45:01 2003 From: asholz@topinform.com (Andreas Holz) Date: Tue Dec 2 22:45:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]Re: LispM-Hackers digest, Vol 1 #235 - 1 msg In-Reply-To: <20031202210101.9925.qmail@kappa.unlambda.com> References: <20031202210101.9925.qmail@kappa.unlambda.com> Message-ID: <3FCD9464.60109@topinform.com> lispm-hackers-request@lists.unlambda.com wrote: >Send LispM-Hackers mailing list submissions to > lispm-hackers@lists.unlambda.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.unlambda.com/mailman/listinfo/lispm-hackers >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > lispm-hackers-request@lists.unlambda.com > >You can reach the person managing the list at > lispm-hackers-admin@lists.unlambda.com > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of LispM-Hackers digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. microExplorer error codes (Robert Swindells) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:49:57 GMT >From: Robert Swindells >To: lispm-hackers@lists.unlambda.com >Subject: [LMH]microExplorer error codes > > >Does anyone have a list of error codes that a microExplorer can return ? > >I have got a mx that is failing to reset when starting up the interface >program. The returned value is 28. > >Robert Swindells > > >--__--__-- > > > >http://lists.unlambda.com/mailman/listinfo/lispm-hackers > > > >End of LispM-Hackers Digest > > > > Robert, isn't there any appropriate documentation on Al Kossow's site? Andreas From nyef@softhome.net Tue Dec 9 09:00:01 2003 From: nyef@softhome.net (Nyef) Date: Tue Dec 9 09:00:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]Microcode emulator Message-ID: <20031209175722.GA9616@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> Hello all. I spent some time over the past month or so working up a partial emulator for the explorer microcode. I'm taking a break from it (and all other lispm-related things) for a little while, so I figured I'd put it where it can garner scornful comments from the list. ^_- It's up at http://www.dridus.com/~nyef/lispm/nevermore/ While I was working on this, I noticed that I'm missing two config roms that would be required to make a full set for the explorer I. Specifically, the CPU config rom (on the other board from the microcode roms) and the memory board config rom. Have these been dumped yet? --Alastair From aek@spies.com Wed Dec 10 11:31:01 2003 From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Wed Dec 10 11:31:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]memory config rom Message-ID: <200312102030.hBAKUt4C027091@spies.com> I checked my board this morning, and there isn't a socketed rom anywhere which would be a config rom. If someone has the diag software running, it would be worth sniffing around in the slot config spaces for the info for the CPU and memory boards. I vaguely remember when Daniel Seagraves was working on a microcode level simulation that he ran into the same problem (no obvious slot roms on the CPU or memory boards) From nyef@softhome.net Wed Dec 10 12:31:01 2003 From: nyef@softhome.net (Nyef) Date: Wed Dec 10 12:31:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]memory config rom In-Reply-To: <200312102030.hBAKUt4C027091@spies.com> References: <200312102030.hBAKUt4C027091@spies.com> Message-ID: <20031210212805.GA11222@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 12:30:55PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > I checked my board this morning, and there isn't a socketed rom > anywhere which would be a config rom. According to the field maintenance manual scans, if you hold the board chip side up with the connectors at the bottom, it's about 1/3 of the way up the board in the gap between the leftmost two backplane connectors. I'm not sure of the scale, but it looks like it could be a 28 or 32 pin chip. > If someone has the diag software running, it would be worth sniffing > around in the slot config spaces for the info for the CPU and memory > boards. The E1ProcGen manual has a list of -most- of the contents of the CPU ROM, which is supposedly on the board which -doesn't- have the ROMs that contain the microcode, on the way right edge of the board, on the right. > I vaguely remember when Daniel Seagraves was working on a microcode > level simulation that he ran into the same problem (no obvious slot > roms on the CPU or memory boards) Yeah, I kinda wish I had access to some of his code, in case he got any further than I have so far. --Alastair From aek@spies.com Wed Dec 10 12:36:01 2003 From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Wed Dec 10 12:36:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]memory config rom Message-ID: <200312102136.hBALaXor004348@spies.com> According to the field maintenance manual scans, if you hold the board chip side up with the connectors at the bottom, it's about 1/3 of the way up the board in the gap between the leftmost two backplane connectors. -- OK, I pulled up the picture on page 1GI_1-17 and I see it. I was expecting an EPROM. Will take care of it tonight. From mklarson@mac.com Tue Dec 30 08:28:01 2003 From: mklarson@mac.com (Michael Larson) Date: Tue Dec 30 08:28:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]microcode rom Message-ID: <61F2EAA7-3AED-11D8-940D-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> I am not sure how active this list is as the last results were posted 2001, but here goes. Is there a copy of the Explorer II microcode available? I would like to do some experimenting with run time compiling the microcode to a jump table for execution on the G4. Thanks, Mike Larson From nyef@softhome.net Tue Dec 30 08:57:01 2003 From: nyef@softhome.net (Nyef) Date: Tue Dec 30 08:57:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]microcode rom In-Reply-To: <61F2EAA7-3AED-11D8-940D-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> References: <61F2EAA7-3AED-11D8-940D-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> Message-ID: <20031230175449.GA31866@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 09:27:03AM -0800, Michael Larson wrote: > I am not sure how active this list is as the last results were posted > 2001, but here goes. That sounds suspicious. I can well believe that the last CVS checkin on E3 was in 2001, but almost everything else has been worked on at some point this year. Checking the mailing list archives shows that we last had activity on the 10th of December, this year. Things actually have been kindof slow recently, though. Maybe the new year will get us somwhere... > Is there a copy of the Explorer II microcode available? I would like to > do some experimenting with run time compiling the microcode to a jump > table for execution on the G4. I believe we may have an E2 microload around somewhere. What we don't have for the E2 are the boot proms or the CPU NuBus config ROM. http://www.unlambda.com/lispm/explorer-source/explorer-lispm-sources/ubin/ should have the file you are looking for, specifically exp2_ucode.mcr. I must say that from what little I've done with the PPC, it feels like it would be a -wonderful- target for a microcode interpreter. Or a dynarec setup for the microcode. The fact that it actually supports most of the complex action of the BYTE instruction natively is great. > Thanks, > > Mike Larson --Alastair Bridgewater From mklarson@mac.com Tue Dec 30 13:12:01 2003 From: mklarson@mac.com (Michael Larson) Date: Tue Dec 30 13:12:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]microcode rom In-Reply-To: <20031230175449.GA31866@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> References: <61F2EAA7-3AED-11D8-940D-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> <20031230175449.GA31866@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> Message-ID: <2071EBE7-3B15-11D8-B971-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> Thanks, found it. Any idea on what the format is? If the EII used a 64 bit 16k microcoded RAM then the size would be about 128k... it probably has some of the dispatch table stuff in there also. As a point of history I took my first AI class on an Explorer II machine, although my focus was on a BSEE and couldn't wait to be done with the class, I have re-discovered Lisp in the past few months and this looks like a fun project. The idea I had for the microcode was to parse the microcode instructions into a C (or asm) switch statement based on the decode of the instruction for each case statement, this would provide a nice fall back to emulate the dispatch table used by the lisp compiler. On newer processors it would be better just to churn through the assembled code and avoid as much decode (branches) as possible. It would be nice to boot my G5 to a VM that could access all 8 GBytes physical or 64 TeraBytes virtual. Cheers, Mike On Dec 30, 2003, at 9:54 AM, Nyef wrote: > On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 09:27:03AM -0800, Michael Larson wrote: >> I am not sure how active this list is as the last results were posted >> 2001, but here goes. > > That sounds suspicious. I can well believe that the last CVS checkin on > E3 was in 2001, but almost everything else has been worked on at some > point this year. > > Checking the mailing list archives shows that we last had activity on > the 10th of December, this year. > > Things actually have been kindof slow recently, though. Maybe the new > year will get us somwhere... > >> Is there a copy of the Explorer II microcode available? I would like >> to >> do some experimenting with run time compiling the microcode to a jump >> table for execution on the G4. > > I believe we may have an E2 microload around somewhere. What we don't > have for the E2 are the boot proms or the CPU NuBus config ROM. > > http://www.unlambda.com/lispm/explorer-source/explorer-lispm-sources/ > ubin/ > should have the file you are looking for, specifically exp2_ucode.mcr. > > I must say that from what little I've done with the PPC, it feels like > it would be a -wonderful- target for a microcode interpreter. Or a > dynarec setup for the microcode. The fact that it actually supports > most of the complex action of the BYTE instruction natively is great. > >> Thanks, >> >> Mike Larson > > --Alastair Bridgewater From nyef@softhome.net Tue Dec 30 15:40:01 2003 From: nyef@softhome.net (Nyef) Date: Tue Dec 30 15:40:01 2003 Subject: [LMH]microcode rom In-Reply-To: <2071EBE7-3B15-11D8-B971-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> References: <61F2EAA7-3AED-11D8-940D-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> <20031230175449.GA31866@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> <2071EBE7-3B15-11D8-B971-000393D9CD5E@mac.com> Message-ID: <20031231003821.GA32348@miyu.paradiesanalytics.com> On Tue, Dec 30, 2003 at 02:11:33PM -0800, Michael Larson wrote: > Thanks, found it. Any idea on what the format is? If the EII used a 64 > bit 16k microcoded RAM then the size would be about 128k... it probably > has some of the dispatch table stuff in there also. The format is documented in SSDN2, appendix A. The links are on the E3 site. The format that we don't have documentation for is E1 microloads (although it's fairly obvious once you find the right point in a disassembly of the boot proms). > As a point of history I took my first AI class on an Explorer II > machine, although my focus was on a BSEE and couldn't wait to be done > with the class, I have re-discovered Lisp in the past few months and > this looks like a fun project. It's fun, but some parts of the system are insane and not documented well. Stack-group switching, microcode instructions, etc. > The idea I had for the microcode was to parse the microcode > instructions into a C (or asm) switch statement based on the decode of > the instruction for each case statement, this would provide a nice fall > back to emulate the dispatch table used by the lisp compiler. On newer > processors it would be better just to churn through the assembled code > and avoid as much decode (branches) as possible. I've had several ideas on how to tackle the problem of emulating an Explorer system. I'm still not sure quite what the best method is... If you're going to be messing around with microcode, you might take a look at the E1 microcode interpreter I started writing a while back. It's at http://www.dridus.com/~nyef/lispm/nevermore/ and includes a disassembler, which might prove to be the interesting bit. The output from the disassembler is as close as I could figure out to the input for the original microcode assembler, and is the sanest way to look at the microcode that I've found thus far. It would need updating or rewriting for the E2, but you can at least use it for ideas. > It would be nice to boot my G5 to a VM that could access all 8 GBytes > physical or 64 TeraBytes virtual. It won't be an Explorer VM, then. Those are limited to 25 bits, word addressed. > Cheers, > > Mike --Alastair Bridgewater